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Motivation for HS war decs

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Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1347	Posted - 2014.04.15 21:28:00 - [1] - Quote -new player who doesnt really know the game starts his own corp and invites other new and oblivious players. It has no assets in space -An aggressive corp decs the new corp but really just wants to target the players for easy kills -The new corp stays docked or breaks down. the aggressive corp gets no kills and has a boring week -in the end, no one wins. Why? because they are *both* doing it wrong. If u are a newish player and u and arent an experienced and knowledgeable eve player, and i mean very experienced and knowledgeable in multiple aspects of eve, including combat, then perhaps u shouldnt be starting ur own corp and leading other players. When u start ur corp, ask urself, if my corp gets war decced, will i tell my entire corp to dock up or log off for a week? because if the answer is 'Yes' then dnt start the corp. particularly if u feel u or ur members would be having a bad game experience while ur absent during those 7 days. Instead of starting a new corp, why dont u join a larger, more organised and experienced corp that can teach u about the game. Eve uni, brave newbies, test and the likes. No one is going anywhere when the blind lead the blind. TL:DR - if u dnt like sitting in station for 7 days, dnt be part of a corp that does it everytime its decced. Likewise, if ur an aggressive corp, perhaps also a little new, looking to flex ur PvP muscles, dont war dec anyone just for the sake of getting kills. that is not the best use of a war dec. Wardecs are against corps, not characters, so when they leave the corp, thats tough **** (though ill say right here, dropping to NPC corp is ok. Swapping to another player corp to avoid a dec is not so ok). What u should use a war dec for is to attack a players assets or their playstyle. Want to destroy their POS or POCO? use a war dec. Want to keep them docked up for a week to break corp moral or stop them mining and missioning? use a war dec. want to get some kills on ur killboard and practice PvP? i highly recommend Duels; FW sites or roaming low sec, WH's and Null for ppl doing exploration TL:DR - use the right tool for the job. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1353	Posted - 2014.04.16 16:44:00 - [2] - Quote as most ppl who dnt like PvP are more driven by isks, mad isks for PvP'ing will probably make them undock. but they'd have to make more returns doing PvP with as little risk as they do there other activities. The threat of neutral RR is exactly why 77ppl dnt attack u three. because even if they could get those 77ppl together in frigs, it could be tanked by a single legion with multiple RR support and command links. They have no way of knowing whether u have it or not. The PvP has no goals to it. The dec lasts a week, pretty much no matter what. there is no achievement in the defenders fighting back and for a lot of ppl (including myself) goals are the incentive to PvP. i rarely PvP for 'good times' even though i enjoy it. I PvP when theres an agenda. the first issue is un workable, the second is as good as its going to get and everyone has their ideas on how to fix the last issue. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1355	Posted - 2014.04.16 16:52:00 - [3] - Quote Also, with the vast majority of attackers using guerrilla tactics, it is hard to strike back. Deccing corps rarely have a POS or ppl who mine and mission. there are no soft targets to attack, mostly only combat ready PvP pilots with a bat phone on hand. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1355	Posted - 2014.04.16 17:14:00 - [4] - Quote i worry making it reward related mean that it can be exploited. Corp A decs their alt Corp B, they shoot their lifeless alts anf get rewards. Leaning towards a cost punishment basis, though my worry there is that these immovable assets become more of a liability like a rorqual and no one uses them. Providing a way for the defenders to prematurely end a dec would be desirable. A vulnerable structure that the attackers MUST preserve for the war dec to complete its full term. ive been playing with that idea for a while. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1355	Posted - 2014.04.16 17:55:00 - [5] - Quote the cost punishment i was talking about was on teh defender side. basically, make them fight or make them lose even more isk. which is quite mean. the structure the aggressors would need to preserve i havent finished rounding off all the loose ends, but the general principal is as follows: in order to make out going decs, a corp must anchor at least one of these structures first. the structures cost to run, but can be activated and deactivated (remotely) when not being used (when ur not in an outgoing dec). This cost to run replaces a large portion of war dec fees. There is no limits to how many decs u can make per structure, u only need one. I havent decided if having multiple structures per corp should be a thing. it makes the dec harder to end, but it prevents it being easy to end. The location of the structure's should be easily determinable, or revealed. They must be anchored in hi-sec. shooting the structure is like a small POS bash. probably no mods/turrets. more than likely a reinforce timer Destroying the structure invalidates the war just as if it had run out. the war ends 24 hours later. The aggressiing corp that loses their structure cannot dec any corp they were decced with at the time it was lost, for a period of time after the dec would have normally expires...or something. Pro's - the initiative is no longer with the attackers alone - defenders can end decs quickly if they are proactive - Mercs have an objective. something where payment can be made by defenders upon its destruction. rather than mercs being a scam thing, or lazy people. - Decs become meaningful? Cons/issues/stuff i havent figured out - attackers dec with multiples corps and corp hop - how does an alliance with multiple corps with such structures work? - limitations on how many structures u can have and how far apart can they be? and other things ppl will come up with edit, i probably would not put a requirement on defenders for such a structure. the attackers have a reason for deccing them, so they have their own objectives. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1355	Posted - 2014.04.16 18:14:00 - [6] - Quote i dnt like the idea of having to choose region. the attackers put one up if they feel they will make outgoing decs in the future. and as long as its up and active, they can make out going decs. seeing as its existence and active state is a requirement to make the dec, its location is already established before the defenders know whats coming. if the attackers put it in a remote location, they will have just as hard a time defending it whilst at the same time attacking their targets, as the defenders will have attacking it whilst at the same time evading the aggressors. The attackers will find it wasier to defend if they are close to it, and they also will probably want to be close to their targets at the same time. Hiring mercs has a lot of potential to put aggressors on the back foot. to such a point, aggressors should also be allowed to bring in allies. as a further note, all allies should have structures before they can join the dec. it should also be a requirement for making decs mutual. then u cant get trapped by the zerg overmind, u just destroy their stuff and end the dec. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1355	Posted - 2014.04.16 18:24:00 - [7] - Quote ive thought about HP scaling but im not sure. on one hand, a dec against a large corp becomes hilariously shortened when a large corp can turn up and practically alpha the the structure. On the other, a small corp has a hard time sitting and bashing forever. So the HP would better scale with the size of the target. but then what stops players manipulating that by joining and leaving corps. The HP would probably need to be static, and instead various sizes and/or amounts of structures for initiating decs against corps of various sizes. Then once the dec is initatied, the objective is set. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1356	Posted - 2014.04.16 18:32:00 - [8] - Quote oh and of course, there is the question: How long does a dec last now that its paid for with an active structure? what other than the destruction of this structure ends the dec? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1358	Posted - 2014.04.17 03:02:00 - [9] - Quote Quaggan Stomp wrote: Remove wardeck from HS altogether. Go PvP to PvP areas. The game does not lack them. HS is not for PvP, its for new character development, PvE and market hubs. People focusing on these activities can not provide you with appropriate challenge and don't want to waste their time on you. Hence entire HS wardecking is pointless. i have to inform u, the entire game is for PvP. read my sig. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1361	Posted - 2014.04.17 13:24:00 - [10] - Quote i just thought i'd add CCP said that players hopping to other players corps during a dec was something they'd like to change. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1361	Posted - 2014.04.17 16:07:00 - [11] - Quote 'very set on not giving the enemy the fights they deserve there should be an actual trade off for achieving that' is this a troll or are u suggesting deccers are entitled to fight ppl who cant fight back, just because they paid 50mil isk? staying docked is perfectly fine. there is no win or lose with staying docked. its neutral. no effort, no risk and no rewards. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1364	Posted - 2014.04.17 23:35:00 - [12] - Quote also neut RR in low sec should not induce a criminal flag. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1420	Posted - 2014.05.01 12:13:00 - [13] - Quote PlatinumMercSEAL wrote: I did some thinking on how to penalize for staying docked with war targets outside of station, decrease their efficiency in industry and trade. -remote skills -refining -time on blueprint usage/research -PI Nerf the station based skills for corporations and its members that are at war when there is a war target within 150 km from the station they are currently in, whether they are online or offline. I originally thought system, but we don't want safe spots to become an issue. I do think the combat corp should earn that affect on the other corp, not just sit in a safespot. This wont cost them a lot in fees, but will give an incentive to fight. It should also follow them when they leave corp until the war is over for that corp. As most wars in the real world go, when the enemy controls the area, it usually does it best to jam enemy communications, which would be remote industry and trade for high sec industrialists. This sounds realistic and fair to me. yeah, absolutely not. Keeping them docked prevents their activity enough. @motie didnt read the thread then? The idea is not to force them anywhere. merely give incentive to fight back. The defenders can still chose not to undock should they decide for themselves that the incentive is not worth it. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1420	Posted - 2014.05.01 12:28:00 - [14] - Quote i see a bunch of misconceptions uve have EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1420	Posted - 2014.05.01 12:47:00 - [15] - Quote Again, read the thread. post 13# might help u understand the idea behind the thread EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1420	Posted - 2014.05.01 13:24:00 - [16] - Quote For some ppl its about fights. For the carebear it might be about productivity/efficiency an agenda or goal. 90% of the carebears i know really enjoy pew pew PvP. But they still often dock up for 7 days when decced because there is nothing, from their perspective, to gain from fighting. Even when they undock, fight off the aggressors, they can mine or mission for like 5 mintues before the aggressors come back. Even if they smash the aggressors, they still cannot safely engage in day to day PvE until the war dec is over. For that reason i like the idea of allowing the defenders to end the dec early after completing some objective. There may be indy corps that want to take the opportunity to prematurely end a dec, either by doing it themselves, or hiring mercs to do it for them. And once the dec is over, it allows them to continue as they were before the dec, but sooner than 7 days. This would not force them anywhere, they dnt have to undock and can follow the tradition of docking up for 7 days. But there would also be an option to 'win' the dec. But dispelling the 'horror' of low sec is a good way to encourage simple and casual pew pew EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1420	Posted - 2014.05.01 13:42:00 - [17] - Quote RR is a bigger deal than i think u realise. Its why 100man corps still feel fairly powerless against 3 man decs. Because there is such a good chance that RR will be involved and they wont be able to break the 3 legions with command link support even if they used 100 cruisers. Ppl have even told me the reason they wont undock even when they outnumber the aggressors is because they are likely to have RR and they just cant get the DPS together. I know its not going to happen, but if neut RR was impossible the dynamics of decs would transform considerably, and i know several corps/alliances that would be far more prepared to undock and fight when they are decced by corps significantly smaller than themselves. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1420	Posted - 2014.05.01 14:00:00 - [18] - Quote @afkalt the point kaarous is making is that no feature should be based around a players desire to be alone in this game. this is a multiplayer and PvP centric game. Ppl CAN try and play alone and without influence from other players, but no design decision should be made to cater to such players. @Kaarous no. dispelling the 'horror' of low sec shouldnt be done by mechanical means. Really just explaining how to safely traverse low sec and that losing a space ship is not as horrible an experience as many ppl think. edit- but they try to do the latter in the tutorials...twice lol. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1420	Posted - 2014.05.01 14:43:00 - [19] - Quote If that alt got decced, would u like to take the opportunity to end the wardec early? perhaps not urself, but hiring mercs to do it if u wanted? or u can just do everything u do now? (except dropping corp and joining another player corp, personally i dislike that) EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1420	Posted - 2014.05.01 15:33:00 - [20] - Quote The thing is, the attackers are able to choose their targets, and can focus their attacks on soft targets and fall back when they meet hard resistance. Its a guerrilla style fight. the defenders have no soft targets to counter attack, no assets in space to siege. only combat ready PvP pilots that undock when they are good and ready, command boosts up and RR just out of D-scan range. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1420	Posted - 2014.05.01 15:55:00 - [21] - Quote giving defenders some way to 'win' not 'lose' is what im pushing at. aggressors already have their reasons for deccing, thats why they dec. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1424	Posted - 2014.05.01 16:55:00 - [22] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Tengu Grib wrote: Why does a war have to be 'dock up and hide' time when it can be 'explode in cheap ships and see if we can take some of them with us' time. I'm pretty sure it's because many people have no idea what they are doing and expect to just end up losing ships after ships. If that is not what you are looking for, fighting a war has a direct negative result for you. Give player negative results or just make them expect negative results and they won't play that way. Some people could litterally get farmed for hours on end ships after ships untill they drained their wallet dry. How many wardec corps would actually drop the dec when they see that instead of just racking more and more kills? I'm not saying racking the kills is bad but for the other guy, it's a super bad move to fight if all he does is lose. Attach that to the fact many people have no idea how fights works which lead them to believe they will lose anyway and you get the current results. People would rather not fight because they expect to lose less that way. yeah there will always be ppl like that and what someone is saying is right, there is likely nothing that can be done to encourage them ppl to fight. but there are some ppl who would be more inclined to fight with more incentive. There are some players who have their main, non-pure isk making chars, decced and would like a way to hit back in a way that isnt completely controlled by the aggressors. Some way to grab the initiative and put the aggressors on the back foot. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1424	Posted - 2014.05.01 19:21:00 - [23] - Quote Nalelmir Ahashion wrote: Missing the general idea players can dec for any reason they like, this includes griefing, its a sandbox game. In my experience, high sec wardecs have more reason behind them than nullsec wars and FW (which are boredom and pew because pew/role-playing). but a lot of the time the attackers in a war dec dont tell their targets why they have been decced. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1426	Posted - 2014.05.01 19:53:00 - [24] - Quote dont compare eve to RL. RL never applies to games, let alone eve, and bringing it up in a discussion like this just devolves the discussion into ppl using RL comparisons that forward their own argument but are all utterly meaningless. lets not do that. grief wars, by CCP's words, are 'not rife', they also arent even untoward in this game. They tend to have more meaning than what some players call 'real PvP'. i dnt understand what benefit could come from writing down the reason for a dec. Especially as secrecy is a big deal in EVE. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1426	Posted - 2014.05.01 20:21:00 - [25] - Quote deccing for easy kills isnt an abuse of the system. the system was never designed as a way for one corp to have 'good fights' with another corp. its just a way to attack a corp. any corp. for any reason. grief decs dnt abuse the system, they exploit defenceless players who have joined a defenceless corp/alliance. why dnt those defenceless players join other players that can protect and teach them the ways of the game? because they want their own corp? well thats all well and fine. But accept the consequences of ur actions. Ur right, decs are completely avoidable from a player perspective. But a corp cant avoid a dec (unless its an NPC corp) and thats what the war decs are about. Decs are against corps, not players. so in that respect, they are working. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1426	Posted - 2014.05.01 20:58:00 - [26] - Quote yeah thats not an official source. Evelopedia is not CCP words. Anyone can edit it like wikipedia. the current system could be better, but its not fundamentally flawed. and again, CCP said grief decs are not rife. and in my experience its the other way round. deccers have reasons, but dnt always make them public. Quote: Also I find it amusing that you all ignore my examples on how ridiculos this system is especially my "reversed" wardec idea to pay in order to get concord on low\null\wh.. if such idea is (and it does) sound stupid how can you justify same thing with war dec? Payment of isk to remove concord from the equation for no reason given ? because it was a ridiculous example, included only to be ridiculed. in a forum for a game thats meant to drive conflict between players, its of no surprise to anyone that a system like that is not even considered. but it does make complete sense, in a game like eve, to pay off the authorities so u can gank someone. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1427	Posted - 2014.05.01 21:53:00 - [27] - Quote i war dec ppl who mine in the same belt/system as me. ppl pay me to war dec for POCO destruction so they can install their own. ive been hired for POS bashes, hired ppl myself to gank other miners. call shenanigans all u want, theres an entire meta being played that u arent even aware exists. No one is forcing anyone to play any way, YOUR the one saying that ppl should play the game YOUR way by only wardeccing for reasons YOUR ok with. But this is a PvP centric MMO sandbox. ppl will attack u in many ways for any reason they like, and war decs, including grief decs, are one of those ways. This is the nature of the game. HTFU. u dnt have to fight back if u dnt want to, but the whole point of this thread is to try and come up with a way that defenders can get more benefits for fighting back. THATS what we are trying to do here. Not justify decs, they are already justified. 1. No reason is needed. maybe u'd be happier in a non-player run sandbox game, where u HAVE to have a reason for doing something. Here, in this game, u have the tools to go and do what u want. reasoning other than 'cause i want to' is not a requirement. 2. A war dec is the mechanic. this is not a game about NPC's, its about players. so go hire some players pirates to be ur bodyguards. and CONCORD are not highsec bodyguards, they only punish after the crime is committed. This game is about player conflict, it is biased towards driving players together by design. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

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